In an effort to be objective, as someone who tends to see the Democrats as much more a basket of lunatics than the Republicans, I’ve got to assume both our perspectives are skewed and in fact both parties are close to equally lunatic, each in their own way.
Democrats haven’t elected a Trump-type I guess, so there’s that. But on the whole I find the Democrats to be off their nut.
Yet I can’t deny the evidence of (a) this article, where you--a clearly very smart guy--sincerely believe the inverse. Nor can I deny (b) the results of the election, where what should have been at least a small wave was in fact a bust for midterms, for the party out of power. So either people on each side see more craziness than their actually is (very possible), or we become blind or numb to the insanity of the side we are closest to. Or a little bit of both: hyper-aware of the opposition craziness, but indulgently tolerant of the craziness (just a little eccentric) of the folks on our “side”.
Not sure what to do with that, except to accept that these incompatible world-views will continue to conflict with each other.
That said, I’m getting exhausted with election denial. From both sides. Both sides do A LOT of it, I am noticing. Pre-denial from the left, when it looked like a red wave, was everywhere on the left. Refusal to accept a loss was everywhere on the right. A tendency not to ask problem Democrats if they would accept the results of the election but constantly asking Republicans the same seemed very common from left-of-center media.
It is what it is. Humans are ornery and don’t want to get along. The right is a bunch of authoritarian fascists, the left is a bunch of election-stealing groomers, and never the twain shall meet. *sigh*
Well, in a healthy democracy, reasonable people can disagree. If you and I had a "which party is worse?" conversation, it seems like we might not get very far -- how does one accurately tabulate the quantity, intensity, and power of lunatics within a movement? We might get better results if we talk about policy instead.
Talking about policy would be great. How do we get our politicians to do that, though? 🙃
Seriously, I rarely feel politicians talk or advance policy (at least in public) except as a gambit for catering to an important segment of voters. Perhaps I’m being judgmental. But, yes, the platonic ideal would be rational debates about policy and how that policy could be implemented, and tested, and adjusted--in the real world.
Of course then we need to agree on policy goals, and sometimes that’s a challenge, too.
It’s really rich to read about fears over authoritarianism in the age of covid, when we’ve just experienced a boat load of it. People like me, disgusted with both parties, want more than shallow talking points. Authoritarianism, like the so-called danger to “democracy” is laughably inadequate to describe anything.
While it wasn't the wipeout some of us had feared, it wasn't great, either. As you noted, control of the Senate will come down to Arizona, Georgia and Nevada. Arizona seems likely to stay in Democrat hands. Nevada seems likely to flip to the Republicans, thereby negating the Democrat gain of the Pennsylvania Senate seat. So, once again, it'll come down to (probably) a runoff election in Georgia. That Herschel Walker is even within shouting distance of Senator Warnock is a damning indictment of those in Georgia who voted for him, given everything that we know. And, you can be 100% certain that the Evil Turtle will pour everything he has into flipping this seat, because if the Republicans manage to do so, that is the end of President Biden's ability to confirm any Cabinet or judicial nominations for the next two years. The wildcard here: If that Mango Menace does indeed announce on 11/15 that he is running for President again in 2024, that could definitely help Senator Warnock, I think.
What might bring the GOP back to sanity is the exit of Trump, either by him winning the 2024 election and reaching his second term expiration date, or losing in 2024 and not being available for 2028 for any number of reasons.
As someone who voted for Trump in 2020, if he runs (I’d rather he not) then I hope he loses the primary. That’s where I am. He’s already pissing off a quarter-to-half his true believers by going after DeSantis. He’s also peeled off a few percent by constantly talking about 2020. His biggest fans like it but ideologues want to know what will be done about inflation and energy and Ukraine and Fauci, amongst other things.
The same in reverse, I would assume. The Republican pick someone other than Trump, the Democrat go all-in on the leftist rhetoric, and the most extremist candidates lose races a more normal candidate would win.
I expect something like this will happen once the Republican purge Trump from their systems.
I’d like to think so, but I believe both parties would require a variety of productive disruptions and restructurings that are unlikely to happen. Also the press would need to be more informational than it is presently. I will remain cautiously pessimistic.
Maybe, but the Dems seem to be pretty enthusiastic about the woke rhetoric, and I think their better-than-expected results in the midterms will lead to D's thinking they don't need to do anything differently in 2024.
As it turns out human beings are horrible at predicting the future. Even with polls. Amazing how often we predict things incorrectly but convince ourselves that THIS time, we’re right!
I mostly agree with your quick-draw hip shot here, and the collateral damage to innocents seems negligible. However, regarding the following...
"I think the will of many on the right to institute one-party rule has been demonstrated, but their ability to do so remains absent."
Not so fast there, Quick Draw. You know the old saw about where there's a will there's a way.
Don't think there's any evidence it's been tried before, and I doubt the crazies are quite this crazy yet, but a clown car packed full of improvised explosive morons as a suicide vehicle aimed at a vital target like Grant's Tomb isn't beyond the realm of possibilities to create chaos and strike fear into people, who will then be happy to have an authoritarian / one-party sort of guy step in to restore order. The great tactical advantage of this, of course, is that it would be virtually indistinguishable from all the other moron-packed clown cars running around and therefore virtually impossible to defend against.
I think you meant "Flight 93 election", not 96. (Or maybe something went over my head.)
No, you're right -- corrected, thanks!
In an effort to be objective, as someone who tends to see the Democrats as much more a basket of lunatics than the Republicans, I’ve got to assume both our perspectives are skewed and in fact both parties are close to equally lunatic, each in their own way.
Democrats haven’t elected a Trump-type I guess, so there’s that. But on the whole I find the Democrats to be off their nut.
Yet I can’t deny the evidence of (a) this article, where you--a clearly very smart guy--sincerely believe the inverse. Nor can I deny (b) the results of the election, where what should have been at least a small wave was in fact a bust for midterms, for the party out of power. So either people on each side see more craziness than their actually is (very possible), or we become blind or numb to the insanity of the side we are closest to. Or a little bit of both: hyper-aware of the opposition craziness, but indulgently tolerant of the craziness (just a little eccentric) of the folks on our “side”.
Not sure what to do with that, except to accept that these incompatible world-views will continue to conflict with each other.
That said, I’m getting exhausted with election denial. From both sides. Both sides do A LOT of it, I am noticing. Pre-denial from the left, when it looked like a red wave, was everywhere on the left. Refusal to accept a loss was everywhere on the right. A tendency not to ask problem Democrats if they would accept the results of the election but constantly asking Republicans the same seemed very common from left-of-center media.
It is what it is. Humans are ornery and don’t want to get along. The right is a bunch of authoritarian fascists, the left is a bunch of election-stealing groomers, and never the twain shall meet. *sigh*
Well, in a healthy democracy, reasonable people can disagree. If you and I had a "which party is worse?" conversation, it seems like we might not get very far -- how does one accurately tabulate the quantity, intensity, and power of lunatics within a movement? We might get better results if we talk about policy instead.
Talking about policy would be great. How do we get our politicians to do that, though? 🙃
Seriously, I rarely feel politicians talk or advance policy (at least in public) except as a gambit for catering to an important segment of voters. Perhaps I’m being judgmental. But, yes, the platonic ideal would be rational debates about policy and how that policy could be implemented, and tested, and adjusted--in the real world.
Of course then we need to agree on policy goals, and sometimes that’s a challenge, too.
The religious right and Trump/Election Deniers ruined this election for the GOP. They are the equivalent of the "Defund the Police" progressives.
It’s really rich to read about fears over authoritarianism in the age of covid, when we’ve just experienced a boat load of it. People like me, disgusted with both parties, want more than shallow talking points. Authoritarianism, like the so-called danger to “democracy” is laughably inadequate to describe anything.
While it wasn't the wipeout some of us had feared, it wasn't great, either. As you noted, control of the Senate will come down to Arizona, Georgia and Nevada. Arizona seems likely to stay in Democrat hands. Nevada seems likely to flip to the Republicans, thereby negating the Democrat gain of the Pennsylvania Senate seat. So, once again, it'll come down to (probably) a runoff election in Georgia. That Herschel Walker is even within shouting distance of Senator Warnock is a damning indictment of those in Georgia who voted for him, given everything that we know. And, you can be 100% certain that the Evil Turtle will pour everything he has into flipping this seat, because if the Republicans manage to do so, that is the end of President Biden's ability to confirm any Cabinet or judicial nominations for the next two years. The wildcard here: If that Mango Menace does indeed announce on 11/15 that he is running for President again in 2024, that could definitely help Senator Warnock, I think.
What might bring the GOP back to sanity is the exit of Trump, either by him winning the 2024 election and reaching his second term expiration date, or losing in 2024 and not being available for 2028 for any number of reasons.
As someone who voted for Trump in 2020, if he runs (I’d rather he not) then I hope he loses the primary. That’s where I am. He’s already pissing off a quarter-to-half his true believers by going after DeSantis. He’s also peeled off a few percent by constantly talking about 2020. His biggest fans like it but ideologues want to know what will be done about inflation and energy and Ukraine and Fauci, amongst other things.
If the GOP wants to win the presidency, Trump must he defeated by Desantis.
Like Highlander! There can only be one...
That and a lot of other structural changes, IMO. The party isn’t in the best shape.
So the next question for Jeff to answer is, what might bring the Dems back to sanity?
The same in reverse, I would assume. The Republican pick someone other than Trump, the Democrat go all-in on the leftist rhetoric, and the most extremist candidates lose races a more normal candidate would win.
I expect something like this will happen once the Republican purge Trump from their systems.
I’d like to think so, but I believe both parties would require a variety of productive disruptions and restructurings that are unlikely to happen. Also the press would need to be more informational than it is presently. I will remain cautiously pessimistic.
Maybe, but the Dems seem to be pretty enthusiastic about the woke rhetoric, and I think their better-than-expected results in the midterms will lead to D's thinking they don't need to do anything differently in 2024.
Huh. I was given to understand that the Democrats were going to lose big because of "defund the police" and Wokeness Run Amok. Weird.
As it turns out human beings are horrible at predicting the future. Even with polls. Amazing how often we predict things incorrectly but convince ourselves that THIS time, we’re right!
I mostly agree with your quick-draw hip shot here, and the collateral damage to innocents seems negligible. However, regarding the following...
"I think the will of many on the right to institute one-party rule has been demonstrated, but their ability to do so remains absent."
Not so fast there, Quick Draw. You know the old saw about where there's a will there's a way.
Don't think there's any evidence it's been tried before, and I doubt the crazies are quite this crazy yet, but a clown car packed full of improvised explosive morons as a suicide vehicle aimed at a vital target like Grant's Tomb isn't beyond the realm of possibilities to create chaos and strike fear into people, who will then be happy to have an authoritarian / one-party sort of guy step in to restore order. The great tactical advantage of this, of course, is that it would be virtually indistinguishable from all the other moron-packed clown cars running around and therefore virtually impossible to defend against.