I'll add that the Noble Savage trope also assumes that those people in the Global South received exactly zero benefit from the West's carbon output, which is absurd. Yes, they are poorer than those of us in the North, but I'm pretty sure they consume lots and lots of goods that were either produced or invented in the North, with no remorse (nor should they). Those GHGs have benefited all of humanity, to varying degrees.
I’m a big proponent of the “equality means we all suck equally” mindset. I remember, during peak Internet Feminism of 2014-2015, floating the revised slogan of “feminism (noun): the radical notion that women are just as bad as men.” Strangely enough, there weren’t many adopters…
Great post. I wish we would just start from the assumption that humans (worldwide) are not going to make enough meaningful sacrifices to slow climate change. We're not going to consume less or travel less or give up cheap energy, especially not to solve a problem where nobody's individual actions make a difference and the impact of a collective effort wouldn't be observed for decades.
We need to stop expecting this behavior because it's not going to happen. Not in India, not anywhere else. Humans reduce emissions when it doesn't involve sacrifice and/or they're being paid. So let's figure out how to do that.
Another seriously excellent take. I hope Jeff expands his influence further with more Slow Boring tie-ins and others inside and outside the rationalist community.
I'll just add a bit to the pile: It's not just "what's done is done" argument when it comes to what the Big Evil West has done, but it's also fundamentally about nature and how nature works.
The West happened to be the culture that invented and drove the shift from agriculture to industrialization. Doing it first doesn't make you evil; it just makes you first. In nature, when you're first to anything, two things occur, naturally: You gain access the untapped spoils of resources that other things in the ecosystem didn't have access to, and you get exposed to the unpredictable dangers associated with these new resources.
With any kind of first, you take the good and you're dealt with the bad.
The West definitely took the good, and **unknowingly for most of the time** spread around the bad.
But this happens everywhere life happens. If China just happened to figure out cold fusion, they would certainly leverage the hell out of it to gain power advantages over other countries. And if they found out 100 years later that all that cold fusion was actually shifting the gravitational forces of earth and throwing off the tides, it sucks for everyone but it doesn't make China evil for exploiting some new innovation that seemed to have such amazing benefits with no obvious downsides at the time.
The innovators blaze the trail. The rest pick up the pieces. This is just how things are. It's not a good guy/bad buy story. It's far more a natural leader/follower story.
Honestly I would be prepared to go full Positive Racist and say "no guys you'll see, the good guys in the Global South will save us, they'll be so much more virtuous than the West, etc..." But when my Global Southern brethren inevitably fail to live up to that trope...Then we're really in trouble!
I agree with the solution-oriented "everyone should do everything they can" - but how can you reconcile the fact that the west had decades of cheap fossil-fueled growth that we're telling developing countries they can't use now?
India is more than happy to use western technology in its arms race against Pakistan. Sorry, I can't find a mushroom cloud emoji., have this instead. ☢☁
I'll add that the Noble Savage trope also assumes that those people in the Global South received exactly zero benefit from the West's carbon output, which is absurd. Yes, they are poorer than those of us in the North, but I'm pretty sure they consume lots and lots of goods that were either produced or invented in the North, with no remorse (nor should they). Those GHGs have benefited all of humanity, to varying degrees.
I’m a big proponent of the “equality means we all suck equally” mindset. I remember, during peak Internet Feminism of 2014-2015, floating the revised slogan of “feminism (noun): the radical notion that women are just as bad as men.” Strangely enough, there weren’t many adopters…
Oh yes, I saw that. Meant to ask how you liked the delightful Slow Boring commenters.
Great post. I wish we would just start from the assumption that humans (worldwide) are not going to make enough meaningful sacrifices to slow climate change. We're not going to consume less or travel less or give up cheap energy, especially not to solve a problem where nobody's individual actions make a difference and the impact of a collective effort wouldn't be observed for decades.
We need to stop expecting this behavior because it's not going to happen. Not in India, not anywhere else. Humans reduce emissions when it doesn't involve sacrifice and/or they're being paid. So let's figure out how to do that.
Another seriously excellent take. I hope Jeff expands his influence further with more Slow Boring tie-ins and others inside and outside the rationalist community.
I'll just add a bit to the pile: It's not just "what's done is done" argument when it comes to what the Big Evil West has done, but it's also fundamentally about nature and how nature works.
The West happened to be the culture that invented and drove the shift from agriculture to industrialization. Doing it first doesn't make you evil; it just makes you first. In nature, when you're first to anything, two things occur, naturally: You gain access the untapped spoils of resources that other things in the ecosystem didn't have access to, and you get exposed to the unpredictable dangers associated with these new resources.
With any kind of first, you take the good and you're dealt with the bad.
The West definitely took the good, and **unknowingly for most of the time** spread around the bad.
But this happens everywhere life happens. If China just happened to figure out cold fusion, they would certainly leverage the hell out of it to gain power advantages over other countries. And if they found out 100 years later that all that cold fusion was actually shifting the gravitational forces of earth and throwing off the tides, it sucks for everyone but it doesn't make China evil for exploiting some new innovation that seemed to have such amazing benefits with no obvious downsides at the time.
The innovators blaze the trail. The rest pick up the pieces. This is just how things are. It's not a good guy/bad buy story. It's far more a natural leader/follower story.
Honestly I would be prepared to go full Positive Racist and say "no guys you'll see, the good guys in the Global South will save us, they'll be so much more virtuous than the West, etc..." But when my Global Southern brethren inevitably fail to live up to that trope...Then we're really in trouble!
I agree with the solution-oriented "everyone should do everything they can" - but how can you reconcile the fact that the west had decades of cheap fossil-fueled growth that we're telling developing countries they can't use now?
India will put Ghandi’s spinning wheel on their flag, but actually, uh, live like him, nah…..
The United States is definitely like 1970s Aerosmith-we have our flaws and hypocrisies, but no one does it better!
Unfortunately our Congress and federal bureaucratic institutions have devolved to the level of Steven Tyler’s “country” album of a few years ago 🙄
India is more than happy to use western technology in its arms race against Pakistan. Sorry, I can't find a mushroom cloud emoji., have this instead. ☢☁